Fell Foal Syndrome

Excerpts from discussion threads on the Fell Pony eGroup dealing with this topic.

From: Thomas S. Kichura
Date: Sun Jul 2, 2000 9:02am
Subject: Fell Pony Syndrome questions

I just came upon a rather small amount of information on Fell Pony Syndrome, and I would like to find out more about this. Is there anywhere that I can research this further? The article I read was dated 1997, I'd like to know if the problem is increasing in the breed. Have they found out anything more about its cause? What a devastating thing...15% loss of foals seems tremendous in such a rare breed...

Virginia

Sun Jul 02 18:48:34 2000
From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley"

Hi, Virginia –

Where did you see that article?? Just curious!

Fell Foal Syndrome is a devastating disease that has been seen in the UK and only in Fell Pony foals which results in anemia and peripheral ganglionopathy (swelling of nerve cells) that results in impaired immunity and is lethal – usually the foal dies or is put down by 3-4 months of age or so. To date there has only been one research paper published which was essentially a clinical description of a few foals with the syndrome and their testing/autopsy results. Because the syndrome has not been seen in other breeds, it is assumed to be genetic in origin – probably recessive – although to date this has not been proven. The research team of “Fell Pony 2000” is busy studying this and they are in the process of collecting blood samples from a large number of ponies in hopes of developing a carrier test. With the number of foals affected each year, they warn that the carrier rate (number of ponies carrying the gene) may be as high as 60-70%. This will be a terrible thing if it is true because there are so few ponies worldwide (less than 6000). Carriers (if they exist) have no symptoms at all. If you are not familiar with recessive diseases, it works like this: Genes run in pairs and a carrier has one good and one bad gene in the pair. Since one gene from the pair is passed on to any particular offspring, the offspring has a 50% chance of inheriting the bad gene. If the carrier is bred to another carrier, there is a 25% chance that the foal will receive a bad gene from both parents (which is lethal). There is a 50% chance that the foal will be a carrier (but otherwise is healthy) by receiving a good gene from one parent and a bad gene from the other. Finally, there is a 25% chance that the foal will be totally normal with 2 good genes (one from each parent). With the carrier test, we could do selective breeding: carrier should only be bred to normal (non-carrier) and you will never get a sick foal. You will produce more carriers this way but that is unavoidable right now. There are so few ponies that if all carriers are eliminated and they really comprise 60-70% of the population, you would be left with precious few and you would have to inbreed them which can only result in more problems. One of the bad things about inbreeding is that it increases the chance of expressing recessive problems, because closely-related ponies have very similar genes. This is likely how the syndrome turned up in the first place – the ponies were even more rare than they are now and they had to be inbred (or become extinct!) This is also how SCID (in Arabians) and HYPP (in Quarter Horses) came to be – by using the same horses over and over for breeding which resulted in a very narrow gene pool full of carriers. This is also why we here in North America have to be so careful to avoid inbreeding – we have so few ponies in our gene pool!

The good news is that so far there have been no documented cases in North America. Is this because we are lucky and have no carriers? I doubt it – I think we are just lucky that we haven’t bred carrier to carrier. But we anxiously await the results of the research and confirmation that this is truly a recessive disease. With our tiny Fell population here, all breeders would be wise (IMO) to have their ponies tested for the carrier gene if /when such a test becomes available. The syndrome remains a mystery, but the researchers hope to have answers in the very near future. It is critical that breeders work together to bring the Fell pony through this awful thing and survive as a breed.

The syndrome is such an awful thing and must be properly handled by all the breeders. And yet as a Friesian breeder I see more of this “recessive stuff” being mishandled! There are probably 30000 Friesians worldwide – still a very small number as far as a “gene pool” is concerned, especially since the breed was saved from extinction beginning with just a few remaining horses at the turn of the century. Recently the FPS has decided t hat breeding stallions cannot be carriers for the “red factor” (chestnut) or have a white star. The red factor test was not developed for this and IMO this is misuse of the test. A chestnut Friesian is very rare – and if you eliminate carriers you might be eliminating some very good genes the same stallions carry. What is worse is the white star (or “few white hairs”!) rule – FPZV has the same rule and I think it is a totally ignorant rule for any breeding association to have. Mares are allowed to have the white star – so you will still produce the white star – but you eliminate any stallion with one. In 20 years with this rule, you will still have the white star and you will have an even narrower gene pool. Not smart!

Anyway, enough genetics – did I answer your question??

Take care, Mary Jean

From: Laura Hart
Date: Sun Jul 2, 2000 12:15pm
Subject: Re: Fell Pony Syndrome questions

Virginia: There has been A LOT of progress in the study of this problem. There was an update article in the most recent issue of The Fell Pony Conservancy of North America's Journal that just came out. To join the Conservancy and get a copy of the Journal you can go to http://www.fellpony.org. I'll leave it to more informed people to give you the details, because I'm not very "medically" educated. I think there are even others on this eGroup who would be better at explaining the progress and the present situation.

--Laura
Michigan USA

From: Mary Jean
Date: Tue Jul 4, 2000 5:35am
Subject: Re: Fell Pony Breed Standard

I just posted a file to the "Files" sections -- it is the FPS' (that's Fell Pony Society in UK) Breed Standard.

Sorry if I confused anyone else about the white star rules in Friesians/FPS (Friesian society in Netherlands!) The white star is perfectly allowed in Fells and is very common.

If you'd like to know more about what is allowed/acceptable in Fells, take a look at the file.

Take care and Happy 4th!

Mary Jean

From: Sue Millard
Date: Tue Jul 4, 2000 1:50pm
Subject: RE: Fell Pony Syndrome questions

I believe this type of disease is not unknown in other breeds - it's just come to the surface sooner in the Fells. I've been told that other breeds are waiting to see whether the Fell investigators produce a genetic test and then they too will use it!! (but this could all be a vicious rumour.)

Suggested methods of control have included microchipping all fillies born from now on, so that it is possible to trace them once a test for the carrier gene is found, but I understand that breeders have been reluctant to take this on board. Silly really, because it amounts to burying one's head in the sand and hoping the problem will go away.

Happy driving

Sue in the English Lakes

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 07:48:44 -0400
From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley" <lhf@sunlink.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Fell Pony Syndrome

What they describe in the one and only paper on the subject is that the foals are well and bright and alert until about 2-3 weeks when they develop diarrhea, cough and may have failure to nurse. Later they develop frequent chewing movements (from the nerve involvement I guess), halitosis (bad breath) and a "coating" on the tongue. Foals become clinically anemic with dry, rough coats by about 4-8 weeks of age and progressively deteriorate and die or are killed humanely at about 3 months of age.

We insure our foals at birth - as long as they are standing and nursing without assistance at 24 hours you can get coverage usually - just In case the awful thing strikes and just in case any of the more common foal tragedies occur (like failure to nurse and get colostrum which has a high mortality, freak accidents, etc.) These guys are worth too much not to protect the investment!

BTW, the other thing I mentioned about breeding/producing carriers being necessary at this stage (if carriers exist) is not for the long term. Years/generations down the road when the gene pool is considerably larger you could consider eliminating some carriers. But now is not the time! Until then, we need careful, selective breeding. . .

Take care, Mary Jean

Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 02:55:45 -0000
From: "Sarah Vogeley" <newforestfarm@mindspring.com>
Subject: Fell Pony Syndrome

I must admit that I am rather shocked at reading how prevelent this syndrome is in the Fell breed. Does the Fell Pony Society have a proposed date of when a carrier test will be available?

Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 03:11:22 -0000
From: "Mary Jean " <lhf@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: Fell Pony Syndrome questions

--- In FellPony@egroups.com, "Sue Millard" <sue@s...> wrote:
> I believe this type of disease is not unknown in other breeds - it's just come to the
> surface sooner in the Fells. I've been told that other breeds are waiting to see
> whether the Fell investigators produce a genetic test and then they too will use it!!
> (but this could all be a vicious rumour.)

That is very interesting, Sue. As far as I can tell so far, there is no DIRECT evidence (at least that published so far) that the syndrome is genetic -- only indirect evidence stated by researchers since the "syndrome has not been seen in other breeds" which they say is evidence against the disease having an environmental cause. In fact, I showed the research paper to my husband who is an equine veterinarian and he said that similar symptoms could be caused by selenium deficiency or fescue toxicity. Well, supposedly they have been studying the DNA, etc., trying to prove the genetic cause and maybe by now they have found it or will very soon. It seems strange to me though that if it is genetic why are there no cases reported in the Netherlands (or are there now?) They have a bunch of ponies now -- not sure of the total number but they had 90 foals last year I heard -- certainly if the bad gene is that common, they should have had some affected. And what about Germany, Katja? I heard from a breeder in the UK that there may have been 2 cases last year -- of course it seems to me that some people assume that if you have a Fell pony foal and it dies, it automatically has the mysterious "syndrome". There are of course much more common causes of foals of any breed dying (like failure to nurse for whatever reason early on which results in infections and high mortality from lack of colostrum/antibodies from mom!) I'm anxiously awaiting reports from the latest research -- the suspense is killing me! IS this really a genetic thing? Is it as common as they say? I hope they are wrong -- but I am not optimistic. If it is genetic, I hope it isn't as widespread as they guess. We'll see. . .

Take care,
MJ

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 07:35:25 -0400
From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley" <lhf@sunlink.net>
Subject: RE: Fell Pony Syndrome

Remember they are only GUESSING how prevalent it is - based on %/number of sick foals in UK. They still haven't PROVEN it is genetic! They have collected blood/DNA samples on many Fells trying to see if there is a pattern which will also be the carrier test so the two are being developed simultaneously. A lot of samples were collected last year and they are still doing it this year - so maybe by next year we will know? I don't know. . . With the studbook less than 100 years old or so, it seems to me they could be studying the pedigrees to see if there is a pattern - if it is genetic all affected foals will likely trace to one common stallion used years ago who carried this awful thing and was used for breeding a lot to produce many carriers? I don't know - maybe they are studying that but I haven't heard them mention it. Anyway, until they prove it IS genetic, there is still a slim chance it isn't - so keep the faith!

Mary Jean

19 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:24:36 -0000
From: "Virginia Kichura" <annabelle@globalnetisp.net>
Subject: Re: Fell Pony Syndrome

Thanks, Mary Jean...your answer helps. That has got to be a real nightmare to live through with a beautiful new foal...I would be devastated. I sure hope more answers are found quickly.

Virginia Kichura

18 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:02:56 -0000
From: "Virginia Kichura" <annabelle@globalnetisp.net>
Subject: Re: Fell Pony Syndrome questions

Does anybody know exactly who is doing the research and where?

Virginia Kichura

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 06:17:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laura Hart <featheryfeet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Fell Pony Syndrome questions

Virginia: It looks like from the literature that I have that it is Dr. Carter at Liverpool University in Western England. Paul May, an excellent Vet over there is having some success in treating the symptoms too. Dennis Brunt is the Secretary. If you have joined the Fell Pony Conservancy, a mailing is going out at the end of this week with a VERY in depth update on this. I am selling raffle tickets by the way, to help raise money for the research. Let me know if anyone is interested! They are $1.60 for one and $8 for book of five (that's in U.S. Dollars) and the drawing is in Sept. The prizes are cash ones. Details will be in the mailing.

--Laura

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:59:42 +0100
From: "Sue Millard" <sue@suemillard.free-online.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: Fell Pony Syndrome questions

I do know in part who is doing the research. The Veterinary research centre near Penrith, known as Merrythought (led by Paul May, I think); the Liverpool University Veterinary Centre at Leahurst, Wirral, Merseyside, led by Dr Knottenbelt; and a team in Cambridge, whose makeup I'm not sure of but guess may be from the University or POSSIBLY from Newmarket.

Fell Pony 2000 issued a booklet as a resume of what is known so far, which was given as a presentation to the Fell Pony Society Council in July 1999. It says that the cause is not yet known to be genetic, but that (I quote) "the evidence gathered so far strongly suggests that the disease is inherited as the majority of the observed characteristics are ones normally associated with an inherited problem and only a minority of those which might suggest the opposite have been seen.... The scientific teams researching the syndrome, ie Cambridge, Liverpool and Penrith, all agree that the most probable cause of the problem is genetic."

The presentation does not discuss any possible alternative causes, but looks at genetics in some detail, and suggests that if the cause is a faulty gene, it has been present in the breed for a very long time and is only now beginning to show reliably (for statistical reasons which are mathematically beyond me to explain). The booklet then urges the Fell Pony Society Council to assume responsibility for measures to help breeders to breed out the faulty gene.

Clear as mud?

Happy driving

Sue in the English Lakes

From: Laura Hart
Date: Mon Jul 10, 2000 1:36pm
Subject: Fell Pony 2000 Report

For those folks who have been asking about the Fell Foal Syndrome, I have posted a report from Fell Pony 2000 (the organization in the UK studying it) in our Files section. It is in Word format. This recently was sent to the members of our North American Conservancy, but we felt that since there was such a big discussion going on here about it that we'd post it here also. If you have technical trouble with this document, let me know.

--Laura
Michigan USA

From: Tom Morrissey
Date: Mon Jul 10, 2000 2:05pm
Subject: Re: Fell Pony 2000 Report

I've also placed a link to an HTML version of the report into the eGroup's links directory. I've placed it here for your convenience. http://www.raresteeds.com/Fell/fell_foal_syndrome_FP2000_report.htm

This should help those of you who don't have MS Word (hard to imagine that there are folks who haven't come over to the dark side). Also, this version is indexed, so you can get to sections of the report easily.

-- Tom Morrissey.

From: Tom Morrissey
Date: Mon Jul 10, 2000 2:14pm
Subject: Re: Fell Pony 2000 Report

Now regarding the content of the report.

I was impressed, negatively so, with the report in two ways:

1) They still seem to be plodding ahead assuming the problem is purely genetic, though they haven't indicated that they have proven this.

2) The tone and tenor of the report w.r.t. the Fell Pony Society's council seems really harsh.

These things leave me unimpressed with their research methodologies and their political and social savvy. I would really like to find out otherwise. I am sure that there is A LOT of which I am unaware that would help me understand the situation better. I'm hoping that others on the list can help me understand. I have found the dialogue to date on the topic quite illucidating.

Cutting edge research in genetics these days generally indicates that many conditions are not PURELY genetic, but instead have environmental components. FOr example, there may be genetic predisposition toward be affected by certain environmental factors. Also, environmental factors can cause genetic damage and mutation.

I am concerned that if FP2000 progresses too much clinging to an unproven hypothesis that they may miss the more holistic reality.

Just my $0.02 for now.

-- Tom Morrissey.

Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:42:00 +0100
From: "Sue Millard" <sue@suemillard.free-online.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: Fell Pony 2000 Report

I have the fuller version of the report which was published over here a while ago. (Or at least it seems to be basically the same.) And I agree with Tom's comments that FP2000 are concentrating on the genetic possibilities, and also that they are being quite harsh on the FPS (which struck me very forcibly). On the other hand, FP2000 are apparently following the veterinary opinions as to the causes, while the FPS council's lack of decision is partly explained by the fact that it is not made up of managers and decision makers, but of Fell breeders, many of whom are just hill farmers, to whom bureaucracy of any sort is not only foreign but actively disliked and they are probably reluctant to impose any more of it on their hard pressed members - hill agriculture being in a dire position at the moment.

This is not to excuse either the FPS council for doing little, or FP2000's didactic approach which may well be putting people off helping who are otherwise quite well disposed to the idea of "saving" the breed. (Some people still imagine that this syndrome affects adult ponies. I sometimes receive "hope your pony doesn't get it" messages, kindly meant no doubt, but as Mr T is now 13 years old I doubt he will succumb to a foal syndrome!)

There's a report on the syndrome and what is currently understood about it being presented to the northern area of the FPS by Gareth Thomas of Liverpool University on 1 Sept. I'll try to get to it, since it is just before I come over to visit, then I can tell you what I find out about the most recent, veterinary view.

Happy driving

Sue in the English Lakes

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:20:36 -0000
From: "Margaret Raines" <dmraines@supanet.com>
Subject: Putting the record straight!!

I have read with interest and a certain amount of concern some of the topics under discussion recently. I hope not to dampen any enthusiasm , which is so obvious from reading the messages, but here goes !!

<snip>

3) I would like to assure everybody that the FPS council IS actively involved in putting into place a recommended code of practice to breeders. Talks have been going on for some considerable time with the Rare Breeds Survival Trust, a body with vast experience of rare and threatened livestock problems. The Council took the view that until the gene has been identified, a carrier test devised and subsequent results analysed , there is little breeders can do. However a spate of very inaccurate reporting from circulation-led newspapers and ill researched articles from others has led the council to respond to the wilder reports. The breed is not threatened with extinction, there will be no "culling" or registration refusals. There WILL be a planned programme of breeding with the co-operation of the owners to reduce the incidence over a number of years and this will begin with the stallions. The reason for this is simple. There are less of them, but they have a wider input. Some carrier stallions will have to be bred from in a planned, monitored programme to safeguard other conformational and type qualities. This is not seen as a problem by our RBST advisors in the elimination of the faulty gene. ( if that is what it proves to be ) Sorry to have gone at length, but it is important that individual breeders wait until the approved programme is in place, as and when. We already have a small gene pool and do not want to reduce it further for whatever reason. I hope this reassures members that the Council is very aware of the problem and that we are not a bunch of reactionary rustics!! Please feel free to contact me on ANY issue re. the Fell pony and I will do my best to get you the answers. Pheew! with every good wish and kind regards

Margaret Raines

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:56:48 +0100
From: "Sue Millard" <sue@suemillard.free-online.co.uk> S
ubject: Re: Putting the record straight!!

<snip>

Fell breeders and the main of the Council members are not rich in money or time, they are mostly Fell farmers and they are having a hell of a time just keeping their bank managers happy at the moment, let alone worrying about their beloved Fells, or doing a PR job that they haven't got time or skill for. The RBST will have a solution for the problem once it is identified; they have a great deal of experience. Let's find the cause first and THEN tell the membership.

<snip>

Sue Millard

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:22:17 -0000
From: "Mary Jean " <lhf@sunlink.net>
Subject: Re: Putting the record straight!!

Yes! It is hard to solve the problem without knowing the cause for sure! We all have this great dark cloud hanging over -- waiting to see if we are lucky and the storm will just pass? If we are not so lucky (and this is all not a big mistake!) I am sure the Fell Pony Society will deal with the problem appropriately. Even if the syndrome is proven to be genetic in origin, which it likely will, the mode of inheritance has to be confirmed before breeders can be educated properly on how to deal with it. Until then it is speculation (eg., IF it is a recessive trait, THEN we should do this or that, etc.) There's not a whole lot we can do in the meantime except worry, and allow the researchers to solve the mystery. . .

Speaking of -- does anyone over there (I mean UK of course) know if pedigrees of affected foals have been studied for common ancestors? Haven't heard of any data on that so I was just wondering. Sounds like a good project for a grad student in Genetics if you ask me (LOL).

Mary Jean

Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:38:58 -0400
From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley" <lhf@sunlink.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Fell Pony 2000 Report

I'd say your comments were worth more than 2 cents, Tom - they were right on the mark and I couldn't agree more. As Margaret and Sue also alluded, too much information (unproven hypotheses) can be as damaging as too little. I wanted to write something to go with that report to American readers but wasn't given the opportunity. Since Fells are "new" to everyone here, flooding them with negative information about an unsolved dilemma will not portray this lovely breed in an overall positive light, causing those who otherwise might become fellow Fell enthusiasts to shy away! Although I believe this is a suitable forum for discussion of this problem and what is known, what is speculated, etc., as we have been doing, I am not sure the same information is suitable for the general public. It is appropriate to inform everyone of a potential problem but until the research comes up with some real answers we should tred lightly on this subject with newcomers IMO. . . Factual information and the resultant recommendations for breeders should of course be shared with all as they become available.

Mary Jean (sharing her penny's worth)

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:36:13 -0600
From: "Tom Morrissey"
Subject: Re: Fell Pony 2000 Report

From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley" <lhf@sunlink.net> wrote (in part): ...................................
... As Margaret and Sue also alluded, too much information (unproven hypotheses) can be as damaging as too little. I wanted to write something to go with that report to American readers but wasn't given the opportunity. Since Fells are "new" to everyone here, flooding them with negative information about an unsolved dilemma will not portray this lovely breed in an overall positive light, causing those who otherwise might become fellow Fell enthusiasts to shy away! Although I believe this is a suitable forum for discussion of this problem and what is known, what is speculated, etc., as we have been doing, I am not sure the same information is suitable for the general public. It is appropriate to inform everyone of a potential problem but until the research comes up with some real answers we should tred lightly on this subject with newcomers IMO. . . Factual information and the resultant recommendations for breeders should of course be shared with all as they become available. Mary Jean (sharing her penny's worth) ......................................

Mary Jean, I'd like to encourage you to still write your piece. At least as far as the Internet goes, once something is "out there" it is effectively public. So if you can provide some counterbalance to what is already "out there", I think there would be great value in it. I know that I would put it side-by-side with the aforementioned report so that people would have an opportunity to get the balanced view.

-- Tom Morrissey.

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 12:28:06 -0400
From: "Thomas S. Kichura" <annabelle@globalnetisp.net>
Subject: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

>Although I believe this is a suitable forum for discussion of this problem and what
>is known, what is speculated, etc., as we have been doing, I am not sure the
>same information is suitable for the general public. It is appropriate to inform
>everyone of a potential problem but until the research comes up with some real
>answers we should tred lightly on this subject with newcomers IMO.

As one of the "potential newcomers" I must say I was saddened that nobody mentioned the syndrome to me, and if I hadn't found out the information by myself through research and asked questions, would *anyone* have told me before I bought? I can only *hope* that someone would have said something. I learned from this that it is so true...do your homework, become an educated consumer. Not all is revealed to you upon first glance (and if it is not, then you begin to wonder what other things are not being mentioned). I see that all of you are doing your best to find a solution to the syndrome, you are all concerned. But I would have been devastated if I had purchased a foal in utero only to have it fall ill, or a mare and find that she was unbreedable, and learned afterwards about the syndrome. I do hope Fell breeders will let newcomers know of this, it is the right thing to do.

Andalusian breeders have made no bones about it, they told me straight away that there is a problem with a high incidence of equine melanomas in their greys. Breeders have links on their websites to further information about this situation and ask for donations to be made to help find answers. I'm going out on a limb to say this, but wouldn't you welcome some national attention and donations from the general public to help find some answers? With such a small gene pool, don't you want to preserve as much of it as you can? Perhaps I just don't understand all the ramifications of this situation...

As for me, I have not scratched the Fell from my wish list. I am frightened off, but not permanently, I assure you. There will still be Fells when a carrier test is found, and it sounds to me IMHO that they are getting reasonably close. Until then, I will bide my time and get a Fell when there are more answers, just not right now.

Virginia Kichura, whincing as I hit the send button...

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:04:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laura Hart <featheryfeet@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

Virginia: I'm not a breeder yet, and still very uneducated in this area, but I certainly understand your feelings! I'm glad you are not scared off because even if a pony is a "carrier" they can (in fact from what I understand MUST) be bred still! Don't wince - you are welcome to your opinions and experiences! Let's just all stay civil & fair (as you have)!

--Laura

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:26:27 +0100
From: "Jenny & John" <jenjohnk@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

Virginia,

Please don't be put off Fells because of all the publicity about the Syndrome. Obviously it is very serious and should be treated as such but I know alot of people who have bred and still breed Fell ponies and none of them have lost a foal to the syndrome, it's very rare, don't think that hundreds of foals are dropping like flies because that just isn't true.

By the way, the daughter of a friend of mine who has Fells, wondered if the fall-out from Chenobyl which affected Cumbria and its livestock (sheep etc) might have some bearing on the syndrome? Did it occur before the fall-out and has it increased significantly since? I thought this was an interesting point of view from a fourteen year old.

Jenny (stop writing interesting messages, I need to go to bed!!!)

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:30:05 -0400
From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley" <lhf@sunlink.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

No need to wince, Virginia - this is an open discussion.

This is a matter of perspective, I'm afraid. If you were a breeder and the syndrome was unheard of in the Fell population in North America (which it is), is it worth making a huge issue about this to a newcomer? This is not like the UK where everyone knows what Fells are and also the problems they may have. Majority of people don't know what a Fell is here. We don't know for sure that it is genetic - so most of what we have discussed here has been speculation! I think the Fell Pony Society is frustrated with this too - people know too much about it, but in reality they don't know much at all! The net result is everyone panics and wonders - that is about all you can do. Certainly if it IS proven genetic - even before the mode of inheritance is found - everyone should know. I'm not saying not to make it an issue, I'm just saying it shouldn't be an overwhelming issue, where 99% of what a new person hears about Fells is about a syndrome that is still a mystery which could be at least in part environmental in origin. If it is genetic we don't know if it is recessive (and there are carriers) or what. If there are carriers they must still be used for breeding because the population is so small. . . And so we have to keep talking in circles! How can you inform people properly about what is unknown? This skewed information is being presented and that is what I am saying shouldn't be done. As if Americans will feel they discovered Fells just in time to pay their last respects to the breed! And if you further flood them with requests for donations that will only reinforce the perception that this is a dying breed. We are not talking about melanomas, here. This syndrome when it has occurred in the UK is lethal in the first few months of life. The parents of such foals have always been perfectly healthy! So when you buy a foal - unborn even -- if affected you would never take it home because it dies by the time it is weaned. It is not like a melanoma or anything else that could be inherited that doesn't show up until later.

I pray even if there is something genetic in the UK Fells, that we don't have the problem in our small population. In any case I would never sell a foal without it being fully insured and I would recommend the same to any breeder - especially if it is sold in utero to protect both buyer and seller. This is not just for the unlikely event (in this country) of a "syndrome" foal, but because there is certain mortality with foals in general due to freak accidents, neonatal infections, etc. The latter are far more common causes of death for foals in general. All our foals are insured at birth, so if we were to lose one (which we haven't) we would still have the emotional loss but at least there wouldn't be the financial one. All they have to do is stand and nurse and you can get coverage pretty much! This is how we deal with the unknown.

If you overload people with information lacking evidence, you are not doing a good job educating them. All you do is confuse people. I have even seen some breeders assume because they had a foal die just because it was a Fell pony it must have been a "syndrome foal", even though the autopsy failed to show any signs of it! People do jump to the wrong conclusions which only potentiate rumors. I myself am STARVED for some evidence supporting current hypotheses! I am trying to get more information on the latest research from the UK and I will certainly share with everyone (including potential buyers) whatever I find out. It will be much easier to discuss this stuff when more is known for sure!

In the meantime there is something we can do besides wait for research results - if you have a Fell pony in North America I will be contacting you in the near future because the researchers would really like DNA samples on as many ponies as possible to help with their project. The good news is it won't cost you anything because Dr. Cothran at U. of KY has offered to provide the kits free of charge and will also run parentage verification to satisfy the society's requirement as a freebie bonus! And if anyone would like to donate $ to the Fell Pony 2000 research, please contact Laura Hart!

Take care, MJ

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:30:13 -0400
From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley" <lhf@sunlink.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Fell Pony 2000 Report

~~~~~~~~~~~~ original message:
Mary Jean, I'd like to encourage you to still write your piece. At least as far as the Internet goes, once something is "out there" it is effectively public. So if you can provide some counterbalance to what is already "out there", I think there would be great value in it. I know that I would put it side-by-side with the aforementioned report so that people would have an opportunity to get the balanced view.
-- Tom Morrissey.
~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll do that, Tom! You are right this is all "out there" so I may now be the biggest culprit for saying too much (LOL) I'll try to write a summary of the points in recent discussion from those who contributed (so people don 't have to weed through the threads) as well as hopefully adding anything I can find out on the latest research. . .

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:42:34 -0400
From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley" <lhf@sunlink.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

Jenny,

I'd say that 14-year-old is very smart girl! Maybe a long shot, but could be something like that who knows! After all why (oh why!) hasn't the syndrome been seen (or at least not reported) in the Netherlands, Germany or US?. . . Are we really that lucky here or is there something about Cumbria?? Or maybe just a genetic predisposition to something different in the environment there? Always more questions than answers! (LOL) I have to stop this now!

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:50:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laura Hart <featheryfeet@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

Yes, please e-mail me (if you are in the US or Canada) if you are interested in buying raffle tickets to raise money for the Syndrome research team! They are $1.60/each or $8/book of five and the prizes are cash drawn in September. I have quite a few left!

--Laura Hart
featheryfeet@yahoo.com

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:57:46 -0700
From: "Larry Ihlang" <fellpony@yelmtel.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

FYI, On our webpage under THE BREED we have a small section "Struggle to Survive" which references the syndrome and Fell Pony 2000. It has been there since Larry first set our webpage up.

Again, I would like to reiterate what has been said earlier...
There have been NO cases of the syndrome in North America to date...
---this could be environmental
---this could be genetic
---this could be a combination...
But this is a wake up call...for all Fell breeders world wide.. with such a small gene pool - syndrome or not - we have to watch who we breed to... or other problems could crop up.

Also..as Mary Jean said... unfortunately, foals do die...for numerous reasons...more than what die because of the syndrome... We still need to find the answer to the syndrome question w/o jumping to conclusions.

Let's all stay level-headed and we can work together to share this wonderful breed with the world.

<snip>

Best to all,
Wendy Musta Hevonen Farm Fells
www.fellponies.com

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:17:31 -0700
From: "Chastain" <chastain@cddn.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

Wendy,

OK I am still very "green" to this syndrome thing. So it only affects foals? How old are the ponies when you are pretty much sure they are in the clear? Just health wise....I know you can't tell if one is a carrier or what have you. How did you guys go about choosing your ponies with this knowledge? I am behind in my mail BIG time and the answers to these questions are probably already posted. if so I apologize. I wish my mail could just read ITSELF to me! I'm sure that is one it way soon too! LOL

Karen

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:11:00 +0100
From: "Sue Millard" <sue@suemillard.free-online.co.uk>
Subject: Fell Pedigrees (was "Putting the record straight")

I haven't heard whether the foals' pedigrees have been researched but I can't imagine something so obvious would have been overlooked.

It may be that until they have definitely identified a "significant" number of foals which have died of the syndrome, it would be counterproductive to research their pedigrees. They might be researching the wrong ones, if you see what I mean? Nothing helpful would emerge from research into the pedigree of a foal which had actually died of a non-syndrome related illness, and the results might actually obscure something important. In any case, the statistical model suggested in the reports of Fell Pony 2000 implied that the faulty gene, if that is the source of the problem, will have been in the breed for a very long time. It may go back beyond the records of the Stud Book which began in 1898.

I think a major stumbling block too is that so many Fells are interrelated to a very large degree. At its most extreme, my first Fell was the product of a brother and sister mating (not accidental!). When you think that a pony may begin to breed at the age of 3-4 and go on until 25, it makes detangling things hard from sheer volume.

I think you would also be hard put to it to find an animal that did not have Heltondale, Sleddale, Waverhead, Townend, Tebay, Lownthwaite or Lunesdale blood in grandsire or granddam. And all these breeders will probably have exchanged stallions at times to open up the breeding lines. For instance, many of the original Tebay ponies were Heltondale bred. David Trotter and Sarge Noble used to swap stallions and also mares with each other.

The same is true of the Greenholme ponies. Heltondale Black Prince 3 was owned by Tommy Capstick (Murthwaite) and Bill Potter (Greenholme) and stood at Stony Ghyll, Shap until he was sold to Germany - the sale only taking place when Prince was being faced with his own three-year-old fillies amongst the mare stock. But they used other stallions as well, some Heltondale and some Murthwaite and some Lunesdale. I'm only quoting these because they're local to me and I know about them. (They're in the Stud Book for anyone to check.)

I could go on! It is a much more complex net than researching the human pedigree!

Happy driving

Sue in the English Lakes

Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 04:52:56 -0400
From: "Thomas S. Kichura" <annabelle@globalnetisp.net>
Subject: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

Thanks to everyone for being so good natured about my last post. You have all been very helpful to me whenever I have asked questions.

My apologies to Wendy, I missed the link at your site and I applaud the fact that you have made mention of the problem there. I thought the "struggling to survive" link was the story about Beatrix Potter's involvement in protecting the lands for the Fell's survival. I wasn't looking for information on the syndrome when I visited your site, I didn't know about it then. I must have overlooked the link thinking I had already read the article.

I understand about the insurance on the foals. Insurance covers the financial loss. For my family that wouldn't be enough right now, for personal reasons. I am well aware that all living creatures can die the moment they are born, syndrome or not. Since I have the knowledge that the syndrome could be an issue, for the moment I choose not to take a 10-15% chance on a foal loss, my personal choice, given my current situation.

Question: if I buy a mare and she is found to be a carrier (I am supposing this thing is genetic because that is what most of the current literature alludes to), she could still be bred as long as she were not bred to a carrier stud, is that correct? Of course this is all supposing a carrier test becomes available. Is there a possibility she would not be breedable under any circumstances?

The literature recently released really makes this thing sound like it is genetic, there is no mention at all of any environmental issues being taken into consideration. I wish they had gone into greater detail why they have dismissed that possibility. You are all more informed about the information available than I am, where in the literature does it mention that there are no cases recorded in any other countries?

I see your point about not wanting to flood a newcomer with negative information, but a mare would represent an investment in both money and dreams. 60-90% of the population being a possible carrier is high!!! 10-15% of dying foals is high!!! These are the statistics as released so far to my knowledge. When I read it, sounds pretty darned alarming to me. The literature I read did not make it sound as though the Fell is a dying breed, but this is a profoundly serious situation. Please explain to me why you do not think it is as big a deal as the literature portrays it.

I understand as breeders you must all be starved for information. As a newcomer, considering an investment both financially and emotionally in the breed, I want that information, too. I think another perspective would be most welcome reading, but I hope it will be balanced with facts and not simply aimed at making the pill more palatable to American tastes simply for promotional aspects.

Once again, I hope I haven't offended anyone, I'm just trying to figure this all out <sigh>

Virginia

Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 06:47:02 -0700
From: "Larry Ihlang" <fellpony@yelmtel.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

Thank you Virginia... I do appreciate you pointing out your observation on our website...I'll have Larry try to make clearer... We do need your input..it is much appreciated! And if you didn't say anything, how would we know! Your concerns are valid and again...we are all working together to "get to the bottom" of the issue...

Take care...and keep on "talkin'",

Wendy
Musta Hevonen Farm Fells

Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 07:07:56 -0700
From: "Larry Ihlang" <fellpony@yelmtel.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

Karen,

Well, I don't proclaim to be an expert on this... Mary Jean wrote a good e-mail, dated June 5th, that went into some detail on symptoms... unfortunately...foals are either euthanized or die by 3 months of age. Foals with the syndrome do not make it to weaning...

My personal experience...I purchased one foal in-utero, one foal at 10 days old, one yearling, one 3 yr old, and 3 weanlings. All healthy to this day.

When purchasing I requested the breeding histories and asked if there were any foals that were lost...and, if so, with syndrome symptoms.. I was given confirmation that none of the mares had any history of producing syndrome foals--and no known knowledge in their lineage.

At this time we have 2 foals on the ground...and no problems. Again...to reiterate, there have been NO cases of the syndrome in North America ... and we sure as darn tootin' hope it stays that way!!!

Anyway..Karen...I hope this helps some...

Take care,

Wendy
Musta Hevonen Farm Fells
www.fellponies.com

Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 12:52:39 -0400
From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley" <lhf@sunlink.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

I believe the only reason they dismissed the environmental cause as they believe this is only seen in the Fell breed. But Sue mentioned this may not be the case ? so we are all confused by what we hear! I have been told by breeders in the NL and Germany they haven?t seen the syndrome nor has there been anything published about it occurring ? but of course we never know if everything is being reported. The ONLY published paper on the syndrome so far was a description of just a few foals ? I believe there were only 5 or so!

10-15% seems like a big number to me, especially since I have never met anyone who has actually had a syndrome foal! There is 0% so far in North America. Last year the Society registered 500 foals ? if 10-15% is correct this means that 75 died??! And there were 90 in the NL with none occurring (?) I guess we have to ask the people ?on the other side of the water? (LOL) if they have heard of that many affected. As Jenny said they are ?not dropping like flies?. The ?60-70%? carrier rate is an estimate based on reversed statistics of the number of foals affected with the ASSUMPTION this is a recessive disease, as we discussed before. Please remember that even if it is genetic it may not be recessive ? there are other possible modes of inheritance which would drastically alter the statistics! For instance, some genetic diseases are due to a ?weak chromosome? subject to breakage (yes I am oversimplifying this) and the resultant mutation would cause the problem. Now this may not happen with every offspring ? the weak chromosome may still be there intact and the offspring would be unaffected. This is just an example of more speculation! All I am saying is be careful how you interpret what you read ? if it is not based on scientific evidence, take it with a big grain of salt. So IF the disease is recessive then the answer to your question about the mare would be absolutely YES ? you could use her for breeding and if you bred to a normal stallion you would never produce a syndrome foal.

Anyway, I like Wendy have had no problems with our Fells. They come from Lownthwaite and Waverhead ? both breeders have told me that they have never had a syndrome foal. With all the breeding they do, if they had ?carriers? wouldn?t they have seen a problem? So if they don?t have carriers we don?t have them either. So I guess Virginia that is why I am not too worried. My recently imported mare has never had a foal, but I am still not too worried. The sire of the foal is Waverhead Prince II who has never produced a syndrome foal. And he has sired lots of foals! We will see very soon!

Mary Jean

Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 13:27:15 -0400
From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley" <lhf@sunlink.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

Just to clarify when I said "5 or so" I meant the number of foals actually described in the paper (not the number of known affected foals which is a number I don't know!)

Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 22:20:04 -0000
From: "Margaret Raines" <dmraines@supanet.com>
Subject: Foals registered

Mary-Jean, the last published volume of the FPS stud book , Vol XVIII, 1998 lists approx. 260 registered foals, 130 fillies and 130 colts. I am not sure how you came by your figure of 500? At a rough estimate, between 250 and 350 foals have been registered each year recently. Caroline and I are about to start the compilation of the 1999 stud book shortly and in the fullness of time hope to compile some statistics regarding the overall herd/ breeding /pleasure Fell pony population. Presently we only have an estimation of the breed head count. Owners are required to return the registration papers of deceased ponies to the Society but in practice few do so. This makes accurate figures very difficult to establish. Yet further EU regulations may result in enabling us to establish a total herd population head count in requiring ALL horses and ponies to have a health document. This we hope would give us an accurate and up to date figure on the present population. I think you are very wise to start keeping a record of US Fell ponies now.

<snip>

Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 20:17:03 -0400
From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley" <lhf@sunlink.net> S
ubject: RE: Foals registered

Thanks for the info Margaret ? I got the number ?500 foals? from Christine Morton last year when I asked her how many Fells there were worldwide and she gave me that number as part of the conversation. Maybe she gave me the number for 1999 and/or also included a guess of the total unregistered foals, too? Not sure. I was told by someone in the Netherlands that they had about 90 foals last year ? all registered I assume (?) And I assume they are registered with the UK? (NL does have their own daughter society, don?t they?)

<snip>

Take care, Mary Jean

Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:44:29 -0400
From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley" <lhf@sunlink.net>
Subject: RE: Foals registered

One more thing, on the subject of numbers Margaret since you might know - how many foals had the "syndrome" last year? Or maybe you would know the number for 1998? Haven't seen any published numbers of incidence so I was just wondering since the number may help put this more in perspective for us.

Thanks,
Mary Jean

Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 19:36:36 -0000
From: "Margaret Raines" <dmraines@supanet.com>
Subject: Prefix's, Foals and Photo's

<snip>

Mary-Jean, Difficult to establish accurate numbers. Some foals are referred to Liverpool University and some to Penrith Vet. Investigative Centre. Still others are not notified or scientifically diagnosed. Will see what the "latest" is if I can. As I understand it the actual number of foals is relatively low but you have to count the sire and dam of these foals as carriers which gives the scientists an estimated percentage of carrier animals. Obviously, some years may be better or worse than others, for foal mortality, due to the "chance" element (assuming it is proved genetic) I do not want to quote unauthenticated figures as this is how the misinformation gets about, as I know you are aware.

<snip>

Regards, Margaret

Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 15:16:48 -0400
From: "Thomas S. Kichura" <annabelle@globalnetisp.net>
Subject: Re: Fell Foal Syndrome

Well, you have all made me feel MUCH better about the syndrome situation. Now I see why you have the questions and reservations that you have about what is going on. While I still think it is important for newcomers to be made aware of the situation, I also see the need for a balanced viewpoint to be given on the subject.

The research literature really sounds bleak, I hope some of you will present some written possibilities to consider along with the "research". I know I have been in the dark and not privy to the information all of you have, so Mary Jean and Wendy, I appreciate your input and experiences. I, too, have wondered how on earth 10-15% of foals could be affected and yet not hear of anyone having any problems.

I the meantime, I will subscribe to the journal through the Fell Conservancy which should help to keep me more updated on the info available.

You are all great to put up with my endless questions!

Virginia

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 09:34:50 -0400
From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley" <lhf@sunlink.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Foal syndrome talk

<<Well, of course my big question (and probably everyone else's) is whether or not it is genetic, and why/how thay have come to whatever conclusions they have. . . with such small gene pools, why are there no apparent cases in the Dales Ponies?"

I was wondering the same thing!! BTW, I am happy to report that the owners of all 43 registered Fells (that's all there are folks!) in North America have agreed to donate blood samples for the Fell Foal Syndrome research. Dr. Cothran at the Univ. of KY has donated the kits and he will be sharing the samples with Drs. Thomas/Carter in Liverpool. We hope it helps the research efforts - I just hope they have some real answers for us soon. No more theories/speculations please - some scientific research results and facts would be nice! Also, correct me if I am wrong, but according to the FPS October 1999 meeting minutes there were a total of either 8-9 or 16-18 cases total in the UK last year (?) Dr. Carter reported 8-9 and Mr. Moreland reported 8-9. Dr. Carter said there were the same number of cases in 1998. I couldn't tell from the minutes if these numbers for 1999 overlapped - ie., were they referring to the same ponies or were they different groups? In either case, this doesn't seem to add up to "10-15%" affected foals as we heard earlier - as someone else said, "They are not dropping like flies!" Dr. Thomas also told me recently that there have been "2 confirmed cases in Germany".

Take care,

Mary Jean

Date: 29 Aug 00 09:52:35 EDT
From: "Brunt, Dennis" <Dennisbrunt@eaton.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Foal syndrome talk

If I may correct your statement.

At a previous General Meeting of the Fell Pony Society, Dr Carter responded to a question put by Mr Moorland enquiring how many pony foals had he received blood samples for in the last year. Dr Carter responded that he had received blood samples from approx. 80 foals.

Mr Moorland asked a suplimentary question as to how many of the foals were Syndrome foals. Dr Carter responded that of the 80 sampled foals, 8 were subsequently diagnosed as syndrome foals.

i.e. 10% of those sampled.

In the last General Meeting of the Fell Pony Society, Mr Moorland asked the latter question again and was given the same answer.

Dennis Brunt

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:08:02 -0400
From: "Mary Jean Gould-Earley" <lhf@sunlink.net>
Subject: RE: Re: Foal syndrome talk

Dennis wrote: << Mr Moorland asked a suplimentary question as to how many of the foals were Syndrome foals. Dr Carter responded that of the 80 sampled foals, 8 were subsequently diagnosed as syndrome foals. i.e. 10% of those sampled.>>

Thank-you for clarifying that, Dennis. So I guess that answers where the "10-15%" affected foals comes from, but the number apparently comes from "foals sampled" and not total foals, which could be very different. Can you answer were there any other confirmed cases in the UK last year - other than those 8???? If I understand you right they only got blood samples on 80 foals - did those samples include ALL those affected (all the confirmed cases)?? Margaret said that 250-350 foals are registered each year (still not sure if her number included those in the Netherlands so there could be more than that). So if only 80 foals were sampled, you could have a big sampling error if that sample of at most 1/4 to 1/5 of all foals happened to include all the syndrome foals, right? What I mean is that the extrapolated numbers could be way off if there is this kind of sampling error (8/80 foals = 10% vs. 8/300 (or more than 300?) = 2.7% (or less if more than 300 foals)). If you assume a representative sample and thus 10% affected, then there should have been around 22 more foals that died. Were there that many? It seems strange to me that it is hard to get these "numbers" that everyone asks about. IMO the "estimated carrier rate" is an even bigger potentially erroneous extrapolation because it assumes no sampling error (true 10% incidence) and that the disease has a recessive mode of inheritance. It is not yet proven genetic, let alone recessive, so that is a "big leap" of speculation (which may end up being totally correct but - particularly if there is a different mode of inheritance - could end up very different.)

Do you have an insight on Virginia's question regarding Dales ponies and the Syndrome?

Our North American sample of 43 does include all of this year's foals (7) - 100% are healthy, thank goodness! We hope the samples do help in the research effort!

Take care,
Mary Jean

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